Peter: 30 years ago, as a young man from Griffith in New South Wales, you began the work that we now know as City Bible Forum, under the name of Evangelizing Commerce or Ecom. Is it hard to believe it's been 30 years?
Craig: It is hard to believe. It just seems like yesterday that I finished high school and here we are 30 years later.
Peter: So, what was a boy from Griffith doing coming and starting a ministry in the city?
Craig: I travelled to Sydney to go to Uni and became a Christian in my first year on the campus, and I really enjoyed campus ministry, learning about the Bible and the gospel and getting excited about evangelism, getting equipped. And then I was invited to do the ministry training strategy (MTS) apprenticeship with St. Matthias church and with the campus at UNSW. Actually, my plan was always to go back to the country. And so I had that in the back of my mind as I was doing the apprenticeship. I thought, “Maybe I'll go back to the country. I'll be a Presbyterian minister”. I grew up in the Presbyterian Uniting Church, but as a teenager I gave away Christianity. I thought it was irrelevant and boring and it was only when I got down to Sydney and first year Uni that I was challenged again with the Christian message and read the Bible – really, as an adult for the first time.
Peter: And what was it when you were doing that apprenticeship program that challenged you to think of not going back to Griffith, but starting a city ministry?
Craig: At MTS we had a staff conference at the end of the year to plan for the following year. And the question that we answered during that week was “how can we reach the world with the gospel?” And we spent the whole week trying to answer that question - brainstorming, coming up with ideas. And the logic went like this: most people in the world live in cities. People don't relate so much to their geographical neighbors next door, but they relate with people in their interest groups, in their affinities. And because I've worked in an accounting field in the city for five years, because I've done commerce at Uni, I got excited about perhaps starting up a ministry amongst people in the commercial world.
Peter: So, what does it look like when an accountant gets excited?
Craig: Well, I was also thinking about how I was going to serve the gospel going forward. So I was trying to think about that. And at that conference I decided that yes, I was going to go and do this ministry to people in the commercial world, but I didn't tell anyone, but I did stay up all night the first night that the idea came and I did a budget. Cause that's what accountants do.
Peter: Fantastic. So that would have been back in 1989. Is that right? That's right. Okay. So you kept this quiet for a little while. How did it germinate from there?
Craig: Well, one of the elders of the church, Col Marshall approached me and he said, “Craig, have you ever thought about starting up a ministry amongst business people in the commercial world?” And I said, “Well, actually Col, I have, and I've even got a budget for it.” So we got cracking, put together a little committee, worked out a short statement of objectives and started raising a bit of money.
Peter: And you supported yourself initially doing some accounting work.
Craig: I worked part-time initially. I was married, my wife Sandra was working full-time as a nurse. And then with the part-time work that I could do in ministry, I spent most of that trying to raise money. And then I went full time in 1991.
Peter: So, I think for the record, the ministry started on the 1st of May 1991, because that's when you opened the bank account or took your first deposit. That's right. And I think you went full time in July of that year.
Craig: Yeah.
Peter: So what kept you up at night in those early days as you started off this ministry?
Craig: Well, to be honest, it wasn't so much with worries and negative things. Maybe I was young and foolish and naive, but I was really excited about starting up this new ministry. The thing that kept me up most at night was thinking through plans, ideas, trying to work out the best structure and methods for the new ministry. So that was the main thing. It was a challenge to raise the money, but I was part of a very strong Christian community at St. Matthias, the campus ministry. And I received lots of support from the people in that team. I was an associate staff worker in the team. They allowed me to raise money amongst the congregation at St. Matthias which was very generous of them. So, there weren't too many worries. It was all excitement.
Peter: Great. So even though you were very much a pioneer, you were part of a team. So, were there ever any doubts that this work would prosper?
Craig: Well, to be honest, when I first started, I didn't really know if it was going to work. I had worked in the city, as I said before for five or six years as an accountant. And I'd seen in those days that there was lots of potential. So, I took a couple of my non-Christian work colleagues through Investigating Christianity studies. I invited my non-Christian partner in the accounting firm along to an Easter outreach breakfast where John Chapman was speaking. So I could see the potential, but really, I didn't know whether I could build a ministry around this. And I remember one day I was doing some walkup evangelism in Martin Place by myself, (it's much better doing it in pairs by the way), and it wasn't a great experience. I wasn't having much luck in terms of striking up conversations. And I sat down and I was feeling quite discouraged. And there's hundreds of people streaming down Martin Place, and I'm thinking, “I've started this ministry. How am I going to reach all these people?” And that was the question I really didn't know. Although, I did have some grounds for optimism, as I say.
Peter: Mm. Yeah. It would have been very overwhelming to, to feel at that point.
Craig: Yes, that's right. One person. The other thing was though, as I said before, there was lots of support. And because I'd worked on the campus amongst commerce students and law students who were Christians, those people graduated and lots of them were working in the city and they became the, really the partners, the leaders in this new ministry. So people have sometimes asked me, did I ever feel alone in those early days? And the answer is no, because I had so many like-minded young men and women who had come out of the campus ministry who were working with me.
Peter: Interesting. And you were even young too at that stage.
Craig: Yeah. And I think one of those young graduates might've been you Peter.
Peter: Yes. As I've gone through the archives, I've been struck Craig, how many of the principles that you laid out in the beginning are still the foundation of the work today. So how do you think we have avoided as an organisation what is sometimes referred to as mission drift?
Craig: Well, there's a few reasons, firstly, I think we've been taught the gospel and the Bible really well, so we can give thanks for the people that taught us and just gave us that strong gospel vision truth that the whole world needs to hear about Jesus. And, we've been so persuaded about that, that outreach and evangelism has always been at the forefront. Secondly, I think in some ways it's a matter of survival. So because we're a para-church ministry, we've had to differentiate ourselves from churches. So it would have been a mistake to try just to duplicate ministry in the same way that churches do it. We've had to be distinctive. And our distinctive is that our people spend 40 hours a week mixing within non-Christian workmates. The issue of godliness that they need help with is confidence to share Jesus within non-Christian colleagues. And so that was the thing that we took up, um, as, as the thing that differentiated us. And the third thing, Peter, is that you've been the team leader of City Bible Forum for the last 17 years. And I taught you well.
Peter: The other side to the story is not just those foundations, but also at a personal level for you, you've done the work consistently year in year out of chasing people, which can be tiring and discouraging persuading people to do evangelism, which isn't necessarily the first thing they want to do. How have you personally persevered in the work for 30 years?
Craig: Well I think firstly it's because I've enjoyed the great freedom and privilege of doing a ministry that I enjoy. And I think it also suits my gift set. So, I love meeting up with people One-on-one. I love small groups. I love strategising, planning, and trying to get things to work. We've had to come up with lots of new ideas and new ministry structures and I love that sort of thing. So that's the first thing that I've loved doing the work. The second thing is, as I said before, I've had lots of support and encouragement from lay leaders from like-minded staff workers. And so it's been a teamwork. So, doing it with other people helps you to keep going. And the last thing is the old personal Bible reading prayer and going to a good church because in the end, it is a hard and challenging work and you need to keep believing the gospel. And the best way to do that is to keep reminding yourself of God's promises and playing in the Bible, trusting him in prayer and getting encouragement through going to a good church. The basics.
Peter: And one level it's not rocket science, is it that the principles that we've learned and you've passed on of proclaiming God's word of prayer and of people that's the piece that's very essential. So, what have been some of the joys, if you think back over the 30 years?
Craig: Well, some of the joys, as I mentioned just a minute ago, uh, working with like-minded staff, so it really has been a privilege over 30 years of working with many people. Some are still here, some have moved on great team of like-minded gospel. People who love the gospel, who were, who are very gifted and good at it. We have a few laughs around the office, which helps. So that's been one of the great joys. Secondly, seeing initiative come from Christian workers. So in ministry, sometimes you feel like you're always pushed, pushing people, encouraging people to do the hard things. It's a great joy when Christian workers take initiative themselves to do, to do outreach, to start up a group. So for example, those, a group of leaders of workplace groups down at Barangaroo, about five years ago, they got together and they decided that they were going to put on some joint outreach events, two or three a year, Easter Christmas, and possibly one other. It wasn't something that we organised. They drove it and they put on these fantastic outreach events in a really nice corporate space with great speakers. We did partner with them and help them, but you know, we were getting 150 - 200 people coming to that, including many non-Christians. And in fact, just yesterday, a young woman from KPMG rang me and she said, “we haven't had many face-to-face outreach events. What about we do something towards the end of this year, Christmas, October, I think we can do something in our firm. And we'd like to invite Christians from other firms to partner with us and to bring their friends along.” Fantastic. This is a young Christian woman in her early twenties taking initiative. And it was just so encouraging. I love getting calls like that.
Peter: Fantastic. There have also, I assume, been some low points, sad events, frustrations. What would have been those that perhaps come to mind?
Craig: One of the low points was when a very close friend of mine, who I knew from the campus ministry and was a leader on the campus and joined me in the early days of e-com. He was a leader, led groups was a great support. And he made the bad decision to give up the faith, to leave his wife, not to have anything to do with his kids. And it wasn't just a short term, bad decision. He, I think the main problem with him was that it was ambition. He wanted to become a partner in a big law firm. And I'm not saying that that was necessarily a bad thing, but he pursued that at the expense of all else. And it ended up to him destroying his family, his faith. And unfortunately a few years ago, he even destroyed his own life through a suicide. So that was, that was very hard. Some of the other challenges are, how much to push and spur people on, encourage people to do the hard things versus cutting people, some slack and being patient with people. So, in the city, people are busy and it's hard to know sometimes if they're just being a bit slack and they could do better or they are genuinely caught up with work and other responsibilities. So it's, it requires a lot of wisdom and patience. And sometimes with, with those people play the long game.
Peter: So, the ministry has been going for 30 years and you said at the outset, you were thinking, how do we reach the people of the city? And there are so many opportunities. Do you think the rationale for the ministry workplace evangelism is as strong today or perhaps even stronger than it was 30 years ago when you began?
Craig: I think COVID 19 has, and is forcing us to ask some hard questions. I think the jury is out whether the opportunities for sharing Jesus through video conferencing and going digital will outweigh the, the loss of face-to-face and personal contact with people only coming into the office a couple of days a week. I think that that will be a challenge. And the jury's out there. There is a lot of upside and I guess we're trying to be optimistic and to think through what the upside is. But I think the rationale is, is still strong and true that we need to be going to where people are at into their world, rather than expecting people to come to us. People aren't walking into churches these days. We've got to engage people where they're at. So the rationale is still very strong as to how we're going to structure ourselves and do the ministry going forward is quite challenging given the COVID-19 situation.
Peter: So I said at the outset that, Craig grew up in Griffith in New South Wales and now found yourself these last 30 years working in a city ministry. Do you, do you sometimes look back and marvel at how God has brought things about?
Craig: I think God has a good sense of humour. So, I was planning to go back to the country to possibly be a Presbyterian minister, enjoy the quiet country life. And here I am working in the middle of the biggest city in Australia. So he's got a sense of humour. I do marvel. I am very thankful for the opportunities that I've had to do this ministry. It's been a great adventure. It's been, it's been a great ride, but to be honest, I don't really marvel that much. I just usually just take it day by day, look at my diary, see what needs to be done today and get on with it.
Peter: I think that's quite a good summary of how I've experienced Craig and working with Craig this past what 20 odd years. And even prior to that, knowing Craig is the sheer determination and perseverance in the work. So Craig, what would you say to a young Christian worker starting up today about thinking of their future?
Craig: I would say that things are going to become more challenging for them going forward. Christians have been marginalized. And I think that it's going to require a lot of courage to keep standing up for Jesus in the workplace. They're going to need the support of other like-minded Christians in the workplace. They're going to need to meet with people to pray, but at the same time, there's still lots of opportunities. A lot of people in our society are lost. They're looking for meaning purpose. They're looking for answers. So the gospel is still as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago, God is still choosing people, making people curious about Christianity. So there are lots of opportunities. Please make evangelism your number one priority. Don't get sidetracked with other good things, keep doing the best thing and also get equipped to be able to do evangelism well - with love, sensitivity, and wisdom in what is going to be a challenging context going forward.
Peter: Well, Craig, it's been a real pleasure working with you these past 20 or so years. And, we're all looking forward to the next chapter, however long that may be. So may God continue to use you each day as you seek to bring the good news to many city workers.
Craig: Thanks, Peter. I'll be looking forward to keeping on evangelizing in the nursing home.
